I’d like to ask if there are any guidelines regarding helping people do their homework. I've looked at the forum rules and couldn't find anything that addressed this particular point.

I’ve been helping students learn physics online for almost ten years now. I enjoy helping people understand physics. In many cases I learn something myself. At other forums I’ve frequented in the past there were general guidelines regarding helping people with homework. Usually they required that the person show what they’ve done so far and where they got into trouble. This gives the person who is helping an idea of how to help them and if they are actually seeking help in understanding the physics or are simply trying to get someone else to do their homework for them,

Personally, I choose not to do someone’s homework for them. That does them a disservice since if you do their work for them they don’t learn from their failures. However I will gladly help them with their homework when I’m sure that they’ve made an honest attempt at solving it themselves. Of course that attempt might only be “Yikes! I have no idea where to begin with this one!” which is understandable.

Specifically I’m concerned about those people who go to forums and get the people at the forums to do their work for them. That helps nobody.

Thanks

Hi Pmb,

This is a very good question and topic to address. I completely agree with everything you said. On MHF we share this exact sentiment and if someone appears to be showing no effort and just listing all their homework problems every night, we start infracting them. I don't think I want to go the route of being extremely strict on this matter, meaning I don't want to infract people for not trying once or twice. It would be too difficult to maintain and sometimes people change their methods after they catch on to the forum learning process. However if you notice anyone abusing the helpfulness of the forum, please report the threads and the staff will take a look at it. This forum and the other "help forums" 100% exist to help people learn, not give them answers.

Jameson

P.S. I definitely don't mind if you respond to someone's initial post with something along the lines of "Well what you you tried yet?"

This had been on my mind too but i couldn't come up with any idea of how to distinguish between the two cases unlike pmb who has given a really useful and workable solution . I mean the attempt itself would be ample testimony. Maybe we could ask them to go over previous threads in detail also and report any similar ones or some such thing because often problems repeat ,sometimes with slightly different values.

I check this forum pretty much everyday. We have two active Moderators as well. If you report a post it will get checked over. I want the content of this forum to stay high and not become a place for spamming entire homework assignments. I will address any concerns that any of our users have. I am always available by PM.

It might be a good idea to mention all of this in the forum rules so that people seeking help will know how to ask for it and people giving help will know that its best not to do other people's homework problems for them. If people know that they should explain why they are having a problem and show where they got stuck then they'll get help faster. Otherwise if they just post the problem they will have to wait for a response and if that response is merely a request to explain where they got stuck then that's time wasted that they might not have to spare.

Just a thought.

I had recommended that the rules be modified to let posters know that we are not here to do their homework for them. I see people asking questions and making no attempt to solve them themselves. Are we really helping these people? When I tutored students in physics they always wanted me to solve certain homework problems for them. This never really helped them because in doing it for them they never learned why they were unable to solve it themselves.

Let me give you and idea of the rules that many other forums require posters to follow.
What bothers me is that I ask the person to make some sort of an attempt at solving it. It's only after they do that do I think it's wise for me to help them. But since other posters simply post the solution I don't see how I can be of much help in the future. Any suggestions?

I haven't gotten any response to my question and I’m not sure why. Let me take another approach.

Some students ask for help by copying, verbatim, the statement of a homework problem from their physics text straight to the forum. Some helpers choose to post the full worked out solution as their response. Any experienced teacher/tutor will tell you that simply posting the solution is not only unhelpful but can lead the student into a false sense of security. That does them a disservice. They end up thinking that they’re ready for a test when in actuality they never uncovered the real reason they had a problem answering the question in the first place. That’s why most, if not all, forums require students to show an attempt at a solution. I don’t like to criticize my fellow helpers – Each to their own I always say? But I would like to encourage helpers to engage the student by first asking them to make some sort of attempt or explain where their confusion lies – even asking that question can help, even if they can’t answer it. I’d also like to encourage the powers that be to add the following to the forum rules (or something similar)
Now that I've said that I'll shut up. No sense in beating this poor horse to death.

I agree that everyone posting question must state what problems they have got as it is the best way to help them understand more clearly

I second this. I will not give a full answer if the asker didn't show any attempt. Rather I'd ask him where's he's having problems.

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Isaac
If the problem is too hard just let the Universe solve it.

werehk and arbolis - I'm excited to see that so many of us agree on this. I'd like to make an observation at this point.

When students find this forum and post their first question they won't know what is expected of them regarding making an attempt. We know this is the case since almost all posts here are merely homework problems transcribed from physics textbooks. If we decide to inform them that they must make an attempt only after they've asked the question then we've wasted a bit of their time since this is an inefficient way to approach this. After all how are students to know that they must show us an attempt?

If this is what they must do then it is really a forum rule. That's why I recommended putting it into the list of forum rules.

Again this is merely a suggestion. But I'm glad to see we're all on the same page on this opinion.

Ok Pmb, it should (or must) be inserted in the rules. That could be only an improvement.

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Isaac
If the problem is too hard just let the Universe solve it.

That would be nice. I was just wondering if there is any reason not to put it in there? Perhaps a reason we are not aware of?

I too am in agreement on this. I would advocate going even one step further where we have a pop up which says something to the effect "If you are looking for a solution please post your attempt, or clearly state where you have a difficulty in understanding" when a new thread has to be posted. This is in addition to including this in the rules of course.

Sometimes questions crop up which are practically identical to ones just anwered, showing a reluctance to even search previous links though directed to. Hence i post solutions only if the person is posting for the first time asking them to post their attempts at least.

I think that a pop-up appearing every time I post a message would get old very fast. Not to mention that most newsgroup readers can turn those off.

Maybe you are right and a rule lying dormant in its section wouldn't i suppose.
Wont it be possible to prevent it being turned off?
The idea is only to have something similar to those road signs which say something like "dangerous curve ahead" at the spot itself rather than on a map.

IMHO I think a comment in fhe forum rules is good enough. And perhaps a polite casual reminder to those who automatically post solutions when they do so.

I think the best for it would be a sticky thread in the most popular subforums whose title would be "If you're asking a homework question, please show your attempt".

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Isaac
If the problem is too hard just let the Universe solve it.

I feel it is for the homework posters to realize that simply getting their homework solved without making an effort is entirely their loss. I don't see why it is anyone's responsibility to make them understand that. But yes, people who don't like doing other peoples' homework(Understandable, though I personally don't mind since I solve doubts here purely out of interest) can always ask the posters to describe their own attempts first before giving the solution. This will also help this forum from turning into a homework-solving forum.

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Just another brick in the wall...

The two reasons that discussion forums have a rule requiring students to show an attempt at solving the problem is (1) to deter students from using the forum to cheat by getting someone else to do it for them and (2) to deter students from becoming lazy by forcing them to think. I consider these to be moral obligations. But that's just me. I obviously don't want to force my morals on others.

The reason I started this thread was because I had just seen someone post several homework problems in a row. It appeared to me that the person was trying to cheat on their homework. I can always contact the moderator in those cases but that takes time. I'd rather use that time helping students who want to learn physics. It was a quandry for me. I had to determine which posters to help since I had to decide which ones to respond to. I have physical limitations which limit the time I can sit in front of the computer. I want to use that time efficiently

Hopefully this forum will become even more popular as time goes by. It may come down to having to choose between who to help and who not to help. I'd like to be able to help those who honestly want to learn physics rather than help someone cheat on their homework assignment. How can I determine which is which? Newcommers might not be aware of the fact that merely posting solutions takes something away from them. If it was me seeking help on homework I'd want people to tell me they're doing me a disservice by merely posting solutions.

But that's just me.

Well a student who thinks so may always specify And I never give complete solutions unless asked (And the people who do generally seem to be those who've made an attempt OR the homework posters.)

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Just another brick in the wall...